What can NYSSRA Nordic do to attract more ski racers?

[Harvester of Sorrow]

NYSSRA Nordic is the governing body of Nordic Ski racing in NY state. Currently, NYSSRA offers a full slate of XC, Biathlon and Ski-O races. Membership is very reasonable ($20 annual). NYSSRA members are eligible to ski in the Empire State Games, and NYSSRA hosts a fantastic Championship Weekend in Lake Placid.

This being said, NYSSRA membership has slowly eroded, and although there were 200 racers in Lake Placid and 100 more at Tug Hill last weekend in fantastic events on good snow, our racer numbers are down.

As VP of NYSSRA, I am interested in ways to improve our organization to attract more athletes to nordic ski racing in NY.

One group of folks that I personally feel we should be able to court are triathletes.Triathlon is popular and seems to be revered as the ultimate in athleticism, even where it snows regularly in winter!. Triathletes spend money, travel to race and train and buy expensive equipment. Triathletes like to suffer and do not mind putting in hours upon hours to train. Why do they pick triathlon over nordic skiing? Or, why didn't they pick Nordic skiing? Or, is it just PR? Can we get triathletes to become nordic skiers for winter cross training? What will it take to get some triathletes to become nordic skiers?

In a nutshell, any ideas for NYSSRA? What more would/should Nordic ski racing/NYSSRA Nordic have to offer to attract more folks?

By the way check out www.nyssranordic.com for info on nordic ski racing in NYS.

Thanks for your replies...

[KickBot]

Hi, Have you guys ever been on a mission to see how any of the other governing bodies work? Obviously, NESNA comes to mind but there are others too. Far West, a particular favorite of mine, is enjoying a kind of renaissance with 200 competitors turning out to start the Sierra Skogsloppet, a relatively minor 15 km event at Tahoe Donner. If the last couple years are anything to go by, we'd be lucky to see numbers like this for the Lake Placid Loppet. Something needs to be done to re vitalize the community in New York State.

One big idea I fancy is to turn the Lake Placid Loppet into a point-to-point race and finish it in Town. That would have a giant impact on our sport. Don't you think?

[Jess Snyder]

This is a very good question. My first year out of college I was pretty busy with grad school at UofR, so I planned to just have fun and race in some of the NYSSRA races. I was pretty disappointed with the lack of competition at most of the races. That's not to say the organizers don't put on a good race, but there just weren't any faster juniors/u23s/seniors attending the races. I wasn't training all that hard and was still able to win some of the races. I just didn't have the incentive to work hard and I was frustrated with the races.

The next year I decided to race in the NENSA league and I only bought a NENSA license, even though I'm living in Rochester, NY. The competition is fabulous in this league and it makes the drive worth it. That being said, I'd love to see NYSSRA doing better.


Here are some of my suggestions to get more racers like me to join the league:

Hold high level NRL races that will draw faster juniors/seniors (the NYSEF JOQ does a good job at this)
Support high school development and Mid A JO team so that we develop faster racers in NY
More summer training opportunities/group activities - get people to feel like they belong to the league year round
More advertisement of races and a better webpage
Take some queues from other leagues like NENSA

[KickBot]

Jess's points are all right on.

Summer Training and group activities would be great. Example, we have 55 people registered to a Manhattan Nordic Yahoo Group and I'll bet less than 5 of those participants see enough value in a NYSSRA membership to sign up. Central Park is one of the best roll ski loops in the country and yet its invisible to all but a hard core group on inner city skiers. To quote Jess, NYSSA needs to make people feel like they belong year round.

I believe the NYSSRA Website needs a total rethink and I am talking deeper change than simply presentation design. Online registration is a requirement. Honestly, I don't have time to screw around with postal mail. I should be able to manage my membership and my profile online. Look at what's going on here.

For certain, you guys should pack a bag and head out on a mission to check out the action of other leagues. I mentioned this before.

Deeper competition, of course. I know Sproule and Tim headed over to NENSA so they'd have a deeper field to race against.

[Alex Jospe]

I grew up in the Rochester area, racing on a public highschool team. I thought I was a pretty hotshot skier until I went to JOs, and then east to college and raced against the eastern juniors. It was a whole new world--these people were fast! Although I am sure a lot has changed since I was in highschool, I believe something is terribly wrong if a motivated high-schooler can't find the information necessary to compete well at a junior level. There is a lot of information available, to those who know where to look (ussa, teamtoday, regional camps, coaches, etc), but that information is not distributed much beyond people who already know about it. I would say NY juniors are severely lacking the resources available to skiers in other regions.

What can NYSSRA do? I believe KickBot is absolutely right in saying look to other regions. NENSA is doing a tremendous job in attracting young people to their races, and NYSSRA has the ski population base to do the same. I believe the fact that there are no ski schools in NY also leads to a lower standard of competition at the races. However, ski clubs can serve the same purpose. To the extent of my knowledge (I could be wrong), there are no ski clubs in NY aside from NYSEF. There are some good high-school teams, but these kids who are the best in the state rarely do better than the bottom quarter of JO results. The problem lies primarily in high-school coaches being too busy to give the motivated kids enough time and information to improve much beyond where they are now. A skier can be top three in the state, and never break top 50 in a D1 college race. This is a problem.

Solutions? A couple pop up.

1. Training Camps. Obviously, many high-school age kids have a lot of talent, motivation, and desire. These are the kids going to the JOQs and ESGQs. We need to get these kids to a higher level. This can be done with summer camps, in all regions, and providing the highschool coaches with information to give to the kids about getting to these camps. They don't have to be long, just a couple weekend camps here and there through the summer and fall, with at least one qualified coach who can show the highschool kids what needs to be done to be the best they can be, can be enough. NYSEF holds a couple camps over the summer, and JLS sports leads camps from upstate NY, but if we could get camps to happen more often locally, there would be a higher probability of kids being able to attend. While a week of training in the summer or fall would be best, starting with some weekend clinics or camps would ensure higher participation. These camps also need to be advertised, via websites or coaches or newsletters.

2. ESGs. Empire State Games used to be a big deal. Now, the only people who attend are high-schoolers who did not make it to states and master skiers. The masters are still a strong crowd, so leave well enough alone, but if ESGs could be one weekend later, the quality of scholastic racing would improve exponentially, since the people who were qualified for states would be able to attend. The exclusive nature of ESGs is also a problem. Although I recognize why they do that, if they opened ESGs to skiers from other regions, and made it a national ranking event, stronger competition would come. As many people have figured out, racing faster people makes you a faster racer. Maybe it would be possible to have the Eastern Cups put on by NENSA count as ESG qualifiers.

3. JOQs. The Junior Olympic Team from mid Atlantic is typically one of the worst teams at the competition. I think it would be a fantastic thing if the skiers had to qualify using the point system that NENSA uses. That way, mid Atlantic skiers could compare themselves to New England skiers online, and see how much faster they had to get. It is possible that using NENSA points would encourage out-of-region skiers to attend the mid-A qualifiers. Also, NENSA JOQs should count as qualifiers for Mid-A JOQs (maybe they already do this?). That way, there is no disincentive for NY kids to race in New England. The drive is not all that bad, as Jess can attest.

4. BKSL: I think it is very important to foster good competition among junior and U23 racers, but the Bill Koch league is pretty darn important to getting kids learning how to ski. I noticed when I was back in Rochester that there seemed to be a resurgence in Bill Koch, which is great, but that should be systematic, instead of splotchy leagues here and there.

5. Competitions. New York has crud for competitions. This is not the fault of the organizers, for the most part, but there is no incentive for higher level skiers to come to the NY races. To attract better competition, prizes help, a lot. Cash for masters and seniors, merchandise for juinors and U23s, not be too hard to do with the right sponsors. Especially races like the Tug Hill marathon and the Lake Placid Loppet, which are more likely to attract people from out of the area, sponsors should jump on those races if they're presented well. Another way to attract better skiers is to make the races national ranking races. That worked well at Lake Placid, and could work well in other places as well. Finally, grooming and course choice--the venues are not bad, but sometimes organizers make interesting choices. The last race I did in NY was a pursuit where the skate race had to go over the classic tracks. That would not fly in New England. Just sayin.

6. Division 3 College racing (USCSA). Some of the powerhouses of Division 3 ski racing are in NY- Cornell and Clarkson University. Any school can have a club team that can race in these races, and there are a lot of schools in NY. This could be a potential way to not lose skiers who go to schools with no ski program.

So, just a couple suggestions.

[Jess Snyder]

Hypothetically speaking, would it be reasonable to merge NYSSRA with NENSA? I know that's a really loaded question with lots of pro's and con's. I'm sure it'd also be a very difficult thing to pull off.

New York seems very isolated from the rest of the ski world. There's a lot of potential here with fit racers and great venues. Joining up with NENSA could really foster better junior development and improve the quality of NY races. I would love to be able to race an Eastern Cup in NY. On the other hand, NY is a big state and it may be too far to have major NENSA races over here. Also, how many Mid-A kids would be qualify for JO's on the New England team? Merging may never be a reasonable solution, but maybe a partnership of some type could help.

I'd be interested to hear what other people thought about this.

[David Kvam]

I really like some of your suggestions. I have been a long time member of NYSSRA and have been one of the few senior skiers to race every year since leaving high school. I may not be the fastest racer but I do love it and I work very hard each year to become a little more competetive. Personally,I think the main fault of NYSSRA is that it has not committed all of its efforts and resources into one (and only one) of it's target demographics. NYSSRA wants membership, (clearly), and therefore tries to promote Nordic Skiing, citizen racing and friendly competition which attracts a fair number of outdoor enthusiasts, decent master skiers and Koch families. NYSSRA also wants to boost the number of post-graduate ski racers and make NY a more competetive ski state (or so I am hearing). They do this by trying to have a competetive points system, organized clubs and NYSSRA championships, which is the attraction of more competetive skiers. This attempt to attract all types of skiers is by no means a bad thing. But I think in some ways it muddies the NYSSRA scene.
Take for example the points system.....which awards for overall place, place in age group, and attendance. I think if you look at other points systems across the country this type of system isn't really found. This makes those top Juniors in NY...(like you were Alex)....think they are perhaps more nationally competitive than they really are. This is because they can't compare it to anything.
I think if NYSSRA skiers want to compete with NENSA skiers, the leaders of NYSSRA need to work with the strongest High School Programs across the state to develop more nordic opportunities for High School Racers in the SUMMER! with the slight pressure of their coaches to attend NYSSRA camps, rollerski series races, NYSSRA running series, organized distance hikes, and many regional training activities lead by NYSSRA leaders (perhaps with a stipend from NYSSRA...they could be like NYSSRA "coaches") those young skiers would see how great it is to be involved with NYSSRA and also become better athletes. Then in the winter the younger skiers do more NYSSRA races and once they graduate (ideally) stay involved with the NYSSRA community through their Masters years.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

First off, thanks to Jim and all the leaders and volunteers in NYSSRA Nordic and the clubs/promoters that put on races. Below is something I wrote a few years ago about this very topic. it's from the perspective of a middle/back of the pack masters skier who races only a little.

JT

I've never organized a ski race, but have been involved in organizing bike races -- especially driving up participation in my club's races, the largest of which gets about 450 participants. And even in a year with a lot of snow I'll only do maybe four or five ski races in the state -- travel is hard and sometimes it's nicer just to ski. But anyway, here are a few thoughts on what might help with race turnout:

1. Make the calendar clearer on the NYSSRA website. Most importantly, when a race is postponed, don't just put the new date next to the word postponed at the old date -- also put information about the race in the location of the new date. Also, on the NYSSRA website the calendar is in that weird "inline frame" that is hard to print. Just make it a regular stand-alone webpage.
2. Put more information about each race online. The Sacandanga Mini Marathon does this -- with info about the course on that club's website. That sort of thing helps a lot. I went to a race last year where there was almost no information about the course or even how to get to it other than the name of the park it was in, so I had to ask around a lot.
3. Put more *specific* information about each race online. This includes the race format (interval, mass start, waves etc). Give an approximate order to the waves, or approximate order of racers, so people travelling from far can know what to expect. If the specific order can't be determined far in advance, write something like "wave start by age group; order of waves will be posted on website by noon on Friday before the race" Saying only "11am start" is too general if start times are going to be spread over two or three hours. Also, letting participants know whether or not there are facilities (bathrooms, waxing, lodge, feeding) etc is important. If they're not, say it so people can prepare. They'll have a better experience and be more likely to return.
4. Let participants know about other skiing opportunities nearby for non-racers. For example, my wife doesn't race but she likes to ski. So we tend to choose events that she can also ski at. I'm not saying that every event should make arrangements for that -- just that if there is a nice place to ski nearby, or skiing is good at the venue afterwards, that should be mentioned. Time on snow is precious for us.
5. Provide clearer information about when the go/no-go decision will be made to deal with poor snow conditions. It seems to me that Wednesday night or Thursday noon at the latest should be the time to decide for a Saturday event, and maybe a day later for a Sunday event. As soon as it becomes known that an event is in jeopardy, the website something like "Decision on whether the race will be held will be announced made Wedneday at 6pm."
7. Similarly, it's so annoying to see a deadline for online entry be postponed. Set a cut-off time that makes sense and stick with it.
8. Weekends with two races near to each other is a great idea -- that's a bigger draw for skiers who have to drive. But in those cases it seems especially important to have some opportunity for non-racing family members to have somewhere to ski nearby. My wife will tolerate not skiing much on one race day, but no way will she go with me if she can't ski either day due to the venue being hard for non-racers to access.
9. Publicize the races more. There are a variety of email lists for skiers around the state and in New England, New Jersey and probably Pennsylvania, Quebec and Ontario. If I was an event organizer, I would be sending announcements about my event to all of these. For my cycling club, we send out an announcement about each race as soon as it is scheduled -- early in the season. And then about six weeks out we send a reminder email, then another at four weeks out, another at two weeks out, and then a last one (sometimes) just before online registration closes. We also usually send some final instructions via email to everyone who has pre-registered online (we use bikereg.com for our events, skireg.com similarly allows such a mailing). PUSH the info to skiers, don't just rely on them to find the NYSSRA site.
10. Recognize that New York is a big state. While avoiding conflicts is important, sometimes there will be two events the same day. If they are more than 3 or 4 hours apart in driving distance, I don't think that's a problem.

These are just ideas -- not all may be feasible. But thanks for all your efforts.

[David Kvam]

So I was thinking more about this and I think with a little restructuring this could really work. The question I asked myself is why isn't every HS and Junior skier in NY state a member of the NYSSRA scene? The answer...and i know this from experience...is that coaches at the HS level do not want their racers racing 2 nights a week at duel meets and then 2 weekend days for NYSSRA. which makes sense. Also...the culminating event for NYSSRA (at least by reputation until very recently was Empire State Games (which was the same time as the state championships) Ok...so as it stands right now there are hundreds of Juniors (and their FAMILIES) who are not members. The only time these Juniors race NYSSRA races are when they are trying to ski JO's. And this is evident by the fact that these JO/NYSSRA races are usually swarmmed with Juniors. It is at these races that Masters become an afterthought. So this is what you do......Divide the points list in two TOTALLY different lists..."NYSSRA scholastic nordic" and "NYSSRA masters nordic"......The Senior/Masters race the same schedule as now and the points system and scoring remains the same. For the scholastic group.....you organize the HS coaches and offer 1/2 price membership fees to all Junior skiers. Create a points system governed by NYSSRA that scores and ranks THE HIGH SCHOOL RACES from around the state. All the coaches have to do each week is submit their results online and NYSSRA awards points to the racers. NYSSRA would be like a unbrella under which all NYS events could be scored. I know what you may be thinking.....The fields of racers and the number of racers are different for each section of the state.....It won't matter...bottom line is that most high schools across the state race very close to the same number of times as all the others so the top skiers from Section II theoretically will earn very close to the same number of points as the skiers from section IX. If they are able to squeeze in an additional weekend NYSSRA race than bonus for them. As far as NYSSRA is concerned their ranking would improve ever so slightly. All of this would be leading up to the big EVENT! NYSSRA championships!!!!! It would be a huge weekend with hundreds of skiers gathering in Lake Placid for sprint championships, and distance races. If this weekend could be made into a Nordic CARNIVAL unlike any event in New England than those racers...once they graduate would then slide up into the Senior/Masters race schedule and scoring system. AND the Senior/Masters races would be held.....BEFORE the junior races so that they get the better course conditions for a much fewer number of skiers.

This would solve a bunch of problems

1) more membership....you get all those juniors at a reduced rate just for skiing in school......and you get their families
2) A championship event that becomes more than another double day of racing.....it becomes a festival...with raffles, giveaways, racing at all levels, food, family, fun, winter (you get the picture)
3) Masters Championships gets run first with all the spectators and respect that they deserve
4) a pipeline of Junior skiers who (especially if they don't go on to ski in college....like yours truly who was a runner) want to continue with NYSSRA into the Senior and Masters level.

[Harvester of Sorrow]

Great Comments everyone, thanks a lot... and feel free to continue to give input. I am taking notes and am really hoping to direct the NYSSRA Nordic executive board in a positive way with your contributions and ideas. Tusen Takk